The first photo shows a cable running down from the top of the first pole to a come a long on the ground.
Cable is approx 1/4 in diameter it is hooked to top of pole with this round stainless Clevis and in the middle of the cable is the aluminum carabineer. The function of this cable is to lift the fabric in the middle.
I've been rigging these tents for 30 years in this manner. The cable was tensioned and the carabineer was found broken the next morning. No storms or strong winds over the night. This was a new carabineer used this one time, not dropped or abused.
Gregg Ludwig - 2016/07/28 10:56:03 UTC
Brown carabeeer
No surprise here and this illustrates the reason we do not use aluminum carabeeners for hang gliding
Pebo - 2016/07/28 12:47:45 UTC
South Australia
Al. Caribiner failure
I'm not clear - was the steel cable running directly thru the caribiner (involves a moving metal-metal contact) - or was there a pulley between the two?
Aluminium can be subject to stress fractures.
Four authors, seven references to carabiners:
- four different spellings
- two original spellings
- two different orignal spellings in two references by one author in a nineteen word submission - including the prize for WORST IN HISTORY
- zero correct spellings:
-- carabiner (correct)
-- karabiner (correcter but never used)
Is this a great sport or what.
---
P.S. - 2016/07/28 14:15:00 UTC
carabineer (also carabinier) - noun historical - a cavalry soldier whose principal weapon was a carbine.
Could this be a Chinese knock-off of a name brand biner made from 'pot metal'?
If I was managing that tent I'd remove from service, every carabiner that originated from the source of this one that fractured.
- And finally we have a correct spelling of the item everyone and his dog intends to use to connect himself to his glider.
I'm not clear - was the steel cable running directly thru the caribiner...
My first thought as well. Metal to metal and particularly different types is sub-optimal. Steel cable through aluminum beener?... not surprised of the result; surprised it hasn't happened previously.
And a fifth crap spelling - truncated.
Davis Straub - 2016/07/28 22:40:05 UTC
Omega brand carabineer.
Fred Bickford (Am Fpci BmbTWOls) - 2016/07/29 00:53:23 UTC
It looks like a steel carabiner in the photo.
It is.
Is that image supposed to be of the failed carabiner?
No Fred. It IS of the failed carabiner - obviously. (Spelled it right anyway.)
Pebo - 2016/07/29 01:38:54 UTC
Broken carabiner
Went out of his way to get it spelled right.
The broken carabiner in the pic looks like anodised aluminium alloy to me.
No.
Most HG harnesses that I'm aware of use steel carabiners due to their higher strength/ toughness.
Name the ones that DON'T use steel.
I see that the US authorities recommend steel for industrial fall-protection.
- Big fuckin' surprise.
- They don't have much motivation to minimize weight and drag.
AFAIK, there have always been concerns about the susceptibility of aluminium carabiners to stress fractures from shock/ point loads - e.g. when being hit on rocks etc (not to mention from moving metal-metal contact). Steel (e.g. in chains) never seems to have had this problem.
Davis Straub - 2016/07/29 03:25:21 UTC
It was aluminum as stated by the guy who found it broken (see above).
Yes Davis. It was aluminum because the guy who found it broken (see above) STATED it was.
Counterfeit parts from Asia infiltrate their way into every avenue of life including aircraft components.
That break looks mighty sketchy to my eye. Not like a fatigue fracture of a good forged aluminum carabiner.
Correct.
The owner of that tent might want to replace all of them if there is any chance that someone can get injured by additional failures.
Or load test what he's got left to well over whatever else is gonna blow first.
- See my previous post. (You heard it here FIRST, people of varying ages.)
- Notice how they spell "CARABINER" - dickhead?
So apparently the guy who bought this carabineer didn't realize it was steel.
Even after HANDLING it.
My Omega carabineers are all steel.
- Omeega and Steeel. You forgot to insert the extra "e"s.
- Oh good, I was so worried about the possibility of you plummeting from your glider.
- And all the pins in your barrel releases are bent.
Thanks for the close-up pics, Davis. From them, I can't see any sign that the whole carabiner was over-loaded (would show elongation/ distortion/ section narrowing if so). (IMHO) there is a slight sign of what could be oxidation on the fractured face. This indicates to me the pre-existence of a crack at this critical point over a long time.
John Pettinato
This was a new carabineer used this one time, not dropped or abused.
I would suggest the fracture was due to a stress concentration caused by this crack.
Difficult to say what the crack was caused by. (I can't see any signs of significant surface damage on the inside face of the carabiner, but..
(FWIW, I have a degree in civil engineering - incl structural)
Guess they covered the spelling of "carabiner" in one of those courses.
Bogus spare parts even found their way onto Air Force One in recent years!
Versus in hang gliding in which bogus parts are Industry Standard - 'specially after they've racked up long track records of killing people.
And that is why i NEVER buy important things like a carabiner off of E-bay or any unknown source ; good chance it's a fake. Purchase items of importance directly from the manufacturer , (or an authorized dealer) if you want to be sure it's real.
A list of Authorized dealers for a manufacturer, is usually found on there website.
Receivers for JR RC airplanes, is another example ; i wouldn't buy any radio gear associated with JR , unless it was from Horizon-hobby directly, (or it most certainly is a Fake).
The problem with Americans is that there addicted to CHEAP ; it's why china does so well here , (selling Crap to goonballs).
I've bin taken by cheap chineese crap before ; but i try to research as much as possible, to keep it from happening.
- Fuckin' chineese. Making cheeap knockoffs of good American carabineers they probably can't even spell right and causing tent collapses and getting us hang glider pilots killed all the time. I really hate those scumbags. Somebody should make Omega Pacific aware of what's going on.
- Yeah Bille. Make goddam sure to purchase your carabiner directly from the manufacturer or an authorized dealer... But don't bother checking to confirm that you actually have it engaged between your harness and glider...
'Specially after you've skipped another stomp test and have your quality American parachute out for repacking to make real sure it will open reliably when you really need it to.
Jeff Chipman - 2016/07/30 01:13:10 UTC
Sylmar
I've been using Taranis gear from China for all my RC's (DLG and Thermal Duration) and have never had a problem even when soaring these nearly beyond visual range.
I've seen plenty of JR equipment brown out and send the aircraft into a heaping mass of wreckage.
YMMV. Not giving up my Taranis.
Hey Jeff... What do you figure the Chinese knockoff guys are clearing for a counterfeit Omega Pacific 7/16" Steel Modified D Keylock Screw-Lok Gold - with the genuine item listing for forty and retailing for under thirty bucks? Think it's worth the trouble of making them crappy enough to fail at under ten Gs and the risk of having them traced back after the kill people?
Bille Floyd - 2016/07/30 15:06:06 UTC
I was talking about fake JR anf Futaba radio gear , that is sold to unsuspecting buyers, under the pretense of it being the real thing. The fake stuff, does work OK sometimes ; just don't try to send it in for a repair under a JR warranty. JR and Futaba, spent a tun on R&R for there stuff ; then Hobbyking sells cheap fake stuff , without investing a dime in R&R.
I won't buy that crap , just for the principle of it !!
Gawd I wish we had more people in this sport with principles like yours, Bille.
Fred Bickford - 2016/07/30 20:12:13 UTC
Same carabiner I got. On mine you can see a very small dent. I guess manufacturer quality control. This carabiner maybe had a fracture that passed the tests but should've been noticed by visual inspection.
JD Guillemette - 2016/07/31 07:35:22 UTC
So I needed a new carabiner for my new harness. Normally I would order one from amazon or some other online retailer, but after this discussion, I ordered it directly from the Omega Pacific website.
Good job, JD! No fuckin' WAY this carabiner:
came from Omega Pacific.
The fact that it failed on its first use in a light application is indisputable proof that it's a cheap Chinese knockoff.
I ordered the standard quik-loc and not the 3 stage quik-loc or the screw locks.
3 stage looked like over kill and are generally used for industrial applications. In an OSHA class I took some time ago they claim that with a workman in a harness, always moving with slack safety lines, a line could wrap and operate the the standard quik-loc in a fall. The instructor actually demonstrated, but he had to set the lines up perfect and even then it didn't open every time. Not likely this would happen with they way we use them in HG.
Demonstrate a scenario in which a nonlocking carabiner can open in a hang glider suspension application - dickhead.
I don't like the screw gate (personnel preference)...
The personnel in which department?
...if you screw them up too tight, sometimes they are hard to unscrew.
Here's one thought... Don't screw them up - too tight or any other way you can think of.
Or if the sleeve is screwed up a bit when open, it can prevent the gate from closing. However, it will still make a "snap shut" noise, but seriously, any common sense can prevent that.
Well I guess this sport is pretty fucked then. If this idiot goddam sport had any common sense NOBODY...
...would be using locking carabiners for harness/glider connections. They're a greatly problematic and dangerous solution to a nonexistent problem.
But it does make me wonder, the subject carabiner is a screw gate, and maybe it was not closed (screw barrel blocking closure) and side loaded.
Dickhead.
But you would think with steel there would be a ductile failure, not the brittle failure shown.
Yeah, but gawd only knows what kind of metal those Chinese are using for their knockoffs.
I ordered a screw link as well for the parachute connection.
Yep, never use one piece of hardware to do the job it's supposed to when two will do.
Again, I would normally pick one up at the hardware store, but lately I have not been been able to find any Maillon Rapide brand (France) screw links...
There is to "Maillon Rapide" brand of QUICK links - asshole. "Maillon rapide" is French for "quick link". (Wichard makes them.)
...at the hardware store, so I figured the Omega Pacific brand screw link are the real deal and rated for 30kN.
Three and a half tons. What's your parachute rated for?
When they come in I will try to proof load to 1/2 limit (as they claim to do at the factory) and let you guys know what I find.
While you're at it how 'bout trying to proof load your bent pin pro toad release to the rating of the Tad-O-Link that many of us are now happy with.
Gerry Grossnegger - 2016/07/31 09:39:46 UTC
If they're really, really well used, the screw threads get so polished that they can unscrew themselves in flight, even if you've preloaded them with a good pull when tightening.
BULLSHIT.
I suppose you could use it in the upside-down position, but that would be weird.
Any weirder than velcroing a Quallaby release actuator to a downtube?
Use a safety rubber (elastic band)...
...(condom)...
...just wrap it around to make a lump below the gate (don't span it across though, that could make it try to open the gate). Once you screw it closed, hike up the lump to the bottom of the gate screw to keep it there.
- Hike it up to the bottom... May take a while.
- Oh good. Another stupid solution to a nonexistent problem.
- But nobody ever even consider under any circumstances hiking your glider up just prior to running off the cliff to make sure you're connected.
is a WAY better solution. (Asterisk... Ya need to connect the parachute leader elsewhere.)
JD Guillemette - 2016/07/31 19:04:17 UTC
Gerry Grossnegger - 2016/07/31 09:39:46 UTC
Once you screw it closed, hike up the lump to the bottom of the gate screw to keep it there.
Never heard of that, but it sounds like a good idea.
Yeah JD, this sport has no shortage whatsoever of stupid bullshit that sounds like good ideas.
speaking of ruber bands on carabiners, I was tempted to to get the "captive eye" version carabiner that Omega Pacific offers, but then thought it may be tough to make adjustment to the harness/carabiner in the field if i need to get the biner of the main.
'Specially since the captive eye pin is a permanent installation.
I have been using the rubber band method to keep the mains and hang loop at the ends of the binner...
Yet another original mangling.
... so see no reason to change it.
Yeah JD... If something ain't broke, don't fix it. Also if it is broke and 'specially if it kills lotsa people.
Now I still need t get metal para-biners...
I thought they were "binners". Did something happen between the previous sentence and this one?
...for my paraglider harness. I have those Aluminium ones that cam with my Woody Valley para glider harness.
How do assholes like this ever get beyond third grade?
Hey people of varying ages... Anybody got a problem with:
Granted, Stanislav doesn't have his parachute attachment on the carabiner but we see this bullshit all the fuckin' time with morons in aerotowing using the carabiner for the upper attachment and worried about blowing their carabiners' gates open.
Here is a picture of mine:
As you can see, it looks identical.
The pen is pointing to the proof marks that are usually missing on a counterfeit part.
(In the case of this one, the very small marks are "OM" and indicate that it has been tested.)
My carabiner came attached to a new High Energy Tracer harness when I bought it in September 2014.
- Exposed and demolished as a totally incompetent fraud in the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions and the adoption of the Tad-O-Link in the subsequent changing of accepted standards and practices.
- Extinction of Highland Aerosports - the operation that taught him everything he knows about hang gliding - and any hope for future aerotowing in the Mid Atlantic region as a consequence of him either preferring to be a paraglider Coronet Peak tandem trill ride driver or, more likely, having worn out his welcome at US aerotowing operations by being the total fucking asshole we've all known him to be for a very long time.
- Female tandem thrill riders get ambulance rides to the hospital after botched Coronet Peak flights in both flavors of foot launched aviation.
- Massive mainstream press coverage and CAA investigations in response to both incidents.
- Two and a half months of hospitalization entirely courtesy of the New Zealand taxpayer in response to the first incident and as a consequence of not having a friend on launch to notice that he wasn't connected to the aircraft he was planning on pilot22ing.
This time there is ONE forum acknowledgement that anything happened. Eleven posts - not available for public viewing - and holding.
FOUR expressions of good will from FOUR of Davis's Dedicated Sycophants:
Jim Rooney is one of the Good guys ; great ambassador to foot-launched flying, and
a really good pilot on both HG and PG !!
@ Jim :
Get well SOON, please !!!!!!
Avolare - 2016/09/30 13:26:44 UTC
Get well soon Jim
Jackie B (Tom Lyon) - 2016/09/30 18:05:43 UTC
Thinking of you, Jim.
Leading Edge - 2016/10/01 16:44:11 UTC
Jim -
Even if we're on different continents, I'm happy to be sharing another day on the same side of the grass.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
---It is what we do when we are tired that determines our capacity the most.--
All are total assholes, one is an off-the-scale total fucking asshole beyond all description, three are anonymous, two are unidentifiable.
Jack Show, Capitol Club, Bags, former employers... Never heard of him. Name one other individual from hang/para gliding who's taken a fall like this. Still can't say anything the least bit south stellar about Kelly Harrison...
...without getting threatened with a violent physical assault.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney had been u$hPa's designated top authority on everything and is now at the bottom of the shit heap. Wouldn't be able to work back up to the level of...
Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?
..."convicted pedophile" with a gun to his head in ten lifetimes.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
And ya know the implications for assholes like you?
Ponzi scheme. Collapse accelerating.
P.S. News flash, Leading Edge... New Zealand's South Island ain't a continent.
P.P.S. Seventeen stills amended to previous post.
---
P.P.P.S. - 2016/10/03 12:40:00 UTC
Add another post to the thread and off-the-scale total fucking asshole beyond all description...
Jim Gaar - 2016/10/03 11:58:10 UTC
All the best to you Jim in your recovery and the future...
...offering his best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.
I've kept scanning all the likely forums for 2016/09/29 and beyond acknowledgement of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's existence. Outside of The Davis Show - were such is conspicuously weak (note that Davis Dead-On Straub hasn't expressed the slightest shadow of hope for a full and speedy recovery) - NADA.
I predict that there will never again be a non hostile mention of that malignant little parasite anywhere else. There was a short window following the crash and mainstream media frenzy in which one needed to post something sympathetic in order to be able to post something positive at a future date. He's:
- now:
-- universally recognized as the idiot, incompetent, corrupt, power structure climber he always has been
-- zero threat to anyone's opportunities to fly anywhere
- totally washed up in and a major embarrassment to both flavors of foot launchable soaring aviation
Total sociopaths like that don't have any actual friends, close relationships 'cause their only true affections and concerns are for themselves and that's gonna be readily and blindingly apparent to anybody with more than an extremely superficial relationship. Can't imagine how the assholes at Ridgely stood him for as long as they did.
Check out the little motherfucker's latest/current avatar on both The Davis Show and the Capitol Mutual Masturbation Society:
No hang glider in sight and look whose hands are on the controls. Right. This is somebody genuinely interested in instruction and advancing others in aviation.
As for Jim Rooney--he's well known for his rather spare and direct "tell it like it is" style--but it's very rare when Jim doesn't say something that's right on target, timely and accurate.
My biggest problem with what you say here is that I don't think you have the clue what you are talking about. Show us your logbook of completed tandems under tow and I MIGHT begin listening to what you say--but you're talking from mere conjecture based on your spin of incident reports and a supposed grasp of tension dynamics and engineering.
You should be very careful about this Tad. You are coming close to impugning the safety records of commercial operations and long-time professional pilots.
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Go ahead, cocksuckers... Say something now. Also... Try to take back some of those posts you made when you thought that what was going on was sustainable.
Evidence of slice on the dark side of the Roon?
We didn't need that.
Get well soon Jim.
You Rooney Linking tuggie faction dickheaded scumbags sure didn't need that. But the sports of hang and, to a lesser extent, para gliding needed that like nothing else barring a permanent severe disabling or death. No forgiveness or reconciliation - EVER. You and all your former pet cocksuckers can rot in hell.
