2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 05:48:39 UTC

flysurfski - 2016/08/21 23:38:14 UTC

As a former instructor IMO anyone who suggests that the dead student should take responsibility for this should have their head checked. Really...

Now YES H2 and above and H4 and H5 especially.

If you are just speaking in generalities, I might agree. But if you are speaking of this case specifically... I'll retort as someone who is strongly suggesting we recognize the pilot was responsible for what happened to the pilot (as if that statement isn't self-sustaining enough)... going off of the only info I have on this, posted by someone near and dear:

ziggyc - 2016/08/18 22:08:22 UTC

...was well versed in the activity and the how and when to use the quick release. There are substantial videos that show she was not only comfortable doing this, but she new what to do, and when to do it.

If you are going off the "H1" rating, since you say H2 and above *is* totally responsible for themselves... It's safe to assume you are basing that off of knowledge and experienced possessed, rather than what their little card says? Just because she was H1 rated doesn't mean she wasn't more qualified, more experienced, at this type of towing and flying in this spot than most all H2's or H3's would be. Being "only" a H1 doesn't necessarily mean she did not know much (enough), or have much skill or experience... Going off the only direct info given here, she knew what she was doing.

1. There is no fuckin' way she should've been towing to three hundred feet as a One. If she had been qualified to do it she should've been signed off as a Two a long time ago. Either way you cut it there was a serious problem with the application of the Pilot Proficiency Program.

2. Also doesn't mean she wasn't LESS qualified. All it means is that some u$hPa certified asshole signed a card.

3. Funny Pat Denevan hasn't come forward to bolster this observation, dontchya think?

And she also knew the risks, that actually added to the fun (as it does for many of you.) From what I've been told, and seen in videos, there are two safety releases in a tow. One of them is operated by the pilot. Should that safety release fail, then there is a backup which is supposed to be a fail safe.

The Birrenator. Note that at 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC Jack Show Time Peter emerged from the rock under which he'd disappeared gawd knows how long ago and has offered zero comment on his Taking-The-Pilot-Out-Of-The-Equation masterpiece and its effectiveness in this incident.

Neither of these releases functioned on Nancy's fourth flight on April 3rd, 2016. They had not been thoroughly checked, just presumed to be working. That's the job not only of the pilot, but also, more importantly, the job of the instructor, who is the last line of protection for his students. He failed. He allowed the equipment to fail.

Change the 'HE's" to "THEY" and that's all I'm sayin'. *HE* (the instructor) didn't kill her. He didn't even allow her to die, without her providing the same exact contribution- not checking the release prior to her flight.

Tell me that Niki checked that bent pin piece o' shit she's using at Tad-O-Link load. Tell me that Davis - who sells and mandates his bent pin piece o' shit at the comps at which guys like Jeff get seriously crashed and killed at fairly frequent intervals - has ever bothered to check it at anything approaching the loading that Jeff was approaching as his Tad-O-Link was getting to the point of increasing the safety of the towing operation.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.

u$hPa's current official tow equipment certification standards.

Again, that is something a pilot of *ANY* rating should know how to, and be expected to, do before any tow flight...

1. That's a lot of stock you're putting in the pronouncements, observations, conclusions, opinions of a very probable non pilot significant other of a dead Hang One.

2. His statements regarding the release issues are all totally clueless. ALL Industry Standard, state-of-the-art releases are easily reachable when everything's going just fine. And whenever anything's going halfway seriously wrong ALL are one hundred percent totally fucking useless. Donnell Hewett's Infallible Weak Link, Dennis Pagen's focal point of a safe towing system, the Quest/Davis/Rooney standard aerotow weak link, Ryan Voight's instant hands free release are all indisputable proof of the above - as if our decades of totally unnecessary horrible and fatal tow crashes weren't.

And with the sudden silent adoption and popularity of the Tad-O-Link...

02-00820
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


...by and with everyone and his dog and incorporated with the same cheap bent pin crap placebo releases the Industry has abandoned it's luck based...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

...strategy for towing safety. ("Put this special fishing line on one end of your bridle. It MIGHT break soon enough to keep you from getting killed in a lockout and if it breaks at the worst possible time, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation, anything bad that happens subsequently will be your fault for not dealing with the inconvenience properly.")

We just had a hotshot United Airlines pilot / Hang Four pro toad comp jock who was well versed in the activity and how and when of using the quick release killed instantly in what Davis characterized as the most benign of conditions and circumstances 'cause:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.

This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?

Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC

EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.

he made the mistake of letting go of the bar with one hand. And if you really wanna have a positive impact on hang gliding safety then run some clinics on controlling the fuckin' glider with one hand in emergency situations. Or maybe just...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

...produce a video illustrating some of these techniques we keep getting told about.

...just like even a first day student is taught to hang check/hook-in check...

Hang check/Hook-in check. Synonyms for the same thing of course.

...prior to launching.

1. PRIOR to launching. Like back in the setup area...

03-03107
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04-03229

...half an hour PRIOR to launching.

09-05019
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10-05124

Just as long as it's PRIOR. So much more useful than SUBSEQUENT TO.

2. You show me one single video of any student doing a hook-in check under any circumstances.

And... expecting people to be responsible for their own lives... yes, it's asking a lot. But even in the case of a student/instructor arrangement- the instructor grants the student permission (access) to higher on the T-Hill... that doesn't mean the student must therefore launch from higher.

1. Students tend to be scared and they're putting a lot of trust in their instructors - virtually always misplaced.

2. Are you Jack Show assholes listening to what this asshole is saying? You assholes who are always screaming at the guys making noises about self teaching?

I have had a couple students that insisted on spending more time on the training hill than was necessary- as I felt (even as conservative as I tend to be) that they were super ready for a sled ride from the mountain.

1. What? They hadn't yet perfected their flare timing and weren't consistently nailing the old Frisbee in the middle of the target circle?

2. Maybe they didn't feel they had fully mastered the roll control skills...

015-03014
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http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1464/26615010786_cfe9c05fd6_o.png
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...you'd taught them.

3. And of course you don't offer them anything in between the thirty foot bunny hill...

026-05014-34317
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...and the thousand foot ridgetop..

03-0711
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Like a scooter tow maybe to get them up to three hundred feet and learn how to apply TORQUE to get the glider to turn.

But THEY are the pilot... so THEY choose to do it or not (choose to trust the instructor's approved progression step, or choose to listen to that little voice saying "Don't try flying this high yet, I'm not sure I can make it!" Pretty few people are ever FORCED to fly in X conditions or from Y point on the hill... and if they don't know if they can or not... then there's already a problem, and they need to speak up and get more experience, ask more questions, ask for a demo.

1. You're totally right. Pat did his usual totally excellent job and that Nancy bitch got exactly what she deserved.

2. So when are you gonna show us the demo of you weight-shift roll controlling a hang glider during a launch run no hands by running under the high wing?

Of course... expecting instructors to TEACH people how to be PILOTS who think for themselves and make their own decisions, with instructor guidance and approval at first (so they can learn what goes into making these decisions).

Name some instructors who are actual pilots.

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/21 22:53:34 UTC

So, you are suggesting logic, reason, consideration and a fundamental understanding of statistics be applied to these discussions. Maybe a dash of basic writing comprehension and proofing. Doesn't seem like too much to ask...

You're right... and I am reminded why I stopped coming here... again...

We know EXACTLY why you stopped coming here... again... last time. You lied, told everybody that Newtonian physics works backwards for roll controlling hang gliders, and got majorly caught.

Carry on fellas, I'm going to go crawl back under the rock I've been hiding under.

That's OK. We've got your posts well archived.

And... by the way... surprised nobody mentioned this yet- but a failure to release from the tow line does not automatically result in a bad (fatal in this case) crash. So something or some things must have happened after that??? I think general practice is to only tow 2/3 of the way to the winch or turn-around-pulley. This way a release failure might mean the student has 1/3 of the tow distance before they are over the winch/pulley... plus 1/3 of the tow distance straight PAST the winch/pulley... and by this time they are lower, so they have the difference in height worth of line to go even farther... without ever releasing (or can not release).

So we can use state-of-the-art releases that stink on ice and it shouldn't make the least degree of difference. This is looking more and more like a suicide case as we delve further into things.

So, point is, great- it sounds like someone identified *A* problem, that the release did not work, and that malfunction was not discovered by both the pilot and the instructor. But how that lead to a fatal crash... we need more info to learn anything constructive really...

Again... Total silence from Mission, Mitch, u$hPa, eyewitnesses. Tells us most of what we need to know. That on top of the history we have from Mission.

P.S. Ryan majorly fucked up his post by duplicating the bulk of it and editing some of the duplicate passages. This is a painstakingly cleaned up version.

[NMERider]

.....Again... Total silence from Mission, Mitch, u$hPa, eyewitnesses. Tells us most of what we need to know. That on top of the history we have from Mission....

Don't you realize that it's more important to the balance sheets and income statements of the major financial stakeholders in the 'spurt of hang dying' to withhold any information that could bolster a wrongful death lawsuit than it is to release information needed to help keep more pilots from visiting the slaughterhouse? Exactly how is the 'spurt of hang dying' any different than the decision by Ford Motor executives to allow Ford Pintos to remain on the road knowing that the gas tanks will fill the passenger compartments with fuel in a rear-end collision. Didn't they determine that it was cheaper to simply pay out on the wrongful death lawsuits they knew would be coming their way rather than to pay the costs of a massive recall? Wasn't there a similar issue with the rear latch of the Chevy Astro Van that allowed our children to go flying out the back of the vehicle when rear-ended on the highway? Wasn't Chevrolet too cheap to spend a few pennies per vehicle to upgrade the faulty part? Of course we should never forget that the USHPA liability waiver is seen by many unscrupulous pilots as a license to kill.
So here are the economics as I see it:
a) Student or other pilot dies before spending much money on the sport. The sport loses a few thousand dollars of revenue and a few hundred dollars off the balance sheet.
b) The sport conducts a recall of potentially deadly misinformation and methods. The sport loses a few hundred thousand dollars from its self-insurance coffers.
Going with choice (b) should be a no-brainer. Morals and ethics be damned.

[<BS>]

Of course we should never forget that the USHPA liability waiver is seen by many unscrupulous pilots as a license to kill.

Por ejemplo?

[Tad Eareckson]

I'll tell ya what the difference is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GGDOUDLhc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GGDOUDLhc

EVENTUALLY stuff outside of control of u$hPa and the Flight Park Mafia becomes a joke out in the mainstream. The crap in hang gliding just gets more and more revered as the track records get longer and longer.

[NMERider]

Of course we should never forget that the USHPA liability waiver is seen by many unscrupulous pilots as a license to kill.

Por ejemplo?

The actual events I know of are private matters and not for public discussion.

Now, if you haven't already encountered this animal you eventually will. I've been seeing this over and over again since I got into the sport in 1973.
The usual rhetoric goes something like, "Well he was the pilot in command and so the decision to trust his equipment and not do his own full inspection is on him and not us."
Or there'd be statements such as, "Well he knew the risks and besides that, the doctrine of assumption of risk protects us."
My all time favorite are all the times I flat out heard the perpetrator(s) say, "Well so-and-so signed the liability waiver and no matter what we do or don't do, they can't sue us anyway."
But none of this is really true and lawsuits have been filed and damages have been awarded and many manufacturers are now gone even if they were 100% innocent.
But the moment you indemnify anyone against causing a negligence induced injury to another you effectively create what amounts to a license to kill.
I know several pilots who are now dead due in large part to the negligence of others who felt little or no obligation to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions, inaction or neglect.
The liability waiver was never intended to be a lethal weapon but that is precisely what it turned into. If you cannot grasp this simple concept then you are an excellent candidate to be legally murdered.
Get it through your head.

In the case of Ford and Chevy the perpetrators were corporate officers who were able to hide behind the corporate veil which indemnified them from individual liability.
I worked for the federal government for nearly 20 years and the doctrine of sovereign immunity indemnified the managers at my agency from being prosecuted or sued for violating the law or abusing their authority.
The liability waiver acts upon others in a similar manner by creating an indemnification against negligence by calling what amounts to gross negligence as a "sports injury" to the victim so the perps are indemnified.
This breeds a culture of lack of conscience and remorse. I have personally been on the receiving end of this several times and racked up large costs as a result.
Like I said earlier, if you don't get this concept and become wary of the unintended effects of that waiver as well as the doctrine of assumption of risk then you may end up injured or dead with no recourse.

And so the game of Russian roulette we inadvertently play has as much to do with managing our trust in others as it does in so-called managing risk.

[<BS>]

Sorry, I thought you were ready to talk specifics. How can you to do b) without them?

[NMERider]

Sorry, I thought you were ready to talk specifics. How can you to do b) without them?

Each pilot needs to be able to see with his or her own eyes especially where false and misleading information is being disseminated in person, print or online.
Some of the worst misconceptions and outright lies come from some of the most respected sources. But I digress.
My main thrust is that via the indemnification made possible by both the liability waiver and doctrine of assumption of risk, pilots will engage in conduct with respect to other pilots' safety in ways they would never attempt if they were held personally, financially liable. Now USHPA is self-insured via the RRG with the promise that it will now fight tooth and nail against any and all litigation for personal injury caused by other pilots' neglect, do you think that pilots will be more or less careful not to injure or kill other pilots?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Tormod Helgesen - 2016/08/22 05:55:45 UTC

This failure to hook in was not fatal though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0

12-1427

13-1702

14-1728


The concussion was severe enough to cause this particular hook-in check skipper to permanently drop out of the sport however. So as far as hang gliding is concerned it was fatal.

there's been at least 2 towing deaths in the US alone this year.

Three.

2016/02/02 - Tomas Banevicius
2016/04/03 - Nancy Tachibana
2016/05/21 - Jeffrey Lawrence Bohl

All fringe activity incidents. Fringe activity has become totally mainstream and forced competent towing nearly entirely off the face of the planet.

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/22 16:07:46 UTC

I am not arguing the statistics.

Good thing 'cause u$hPa suppresses them to the point that we really don't have any.

You said it has been years since there was a foot launch fatality, there have been two in the last year or so that I know of off hand. I also stated that launching without hooking into the glider is a danger of foot launching and not towing.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png

http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg

Right.

Not arguing one side or the other, just sharing facts.

Not by a long shot.

I wasn't referring to any specific incident regarding not hooking in, there have been plenty.

Not amongst the tiny handful of individuals who have a practice of adhering to the relevant u$hPa SOP.

NMERider - 2016/08/22 17:39:32 UTC

Gentlemen,

This matter concerns H1/H2 student pilots getting killed while being winch towed under instruction.

Depends a lot one one's definition of "instruction".

I am not aware of any foot launch fatalities in recent history that have involved H1/H2 students while under instruction.

Sounds to me like the tow driver may be able to influence the safety of a flight...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...one way or another.

Furthermore, I am not aware of H1/H2 students winch towing that use a launch cart or that don't foot launch at least part of the time.

And foot launching a tow...

http://ozreport.com/9.008
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/10

Death in the paddock.

As pilots we take our lives in our hands. On Sunday, Robin Strid, a Norwegian pilot, chose to foot launch in light cross wind conditions in spite of the pleadings from the ground crew on line number two to use a cart.

...increases the probability of something bad happening by a factor or ten. So let's start all our students off foot launching exclusively.

Therefore it is entirely possible to launch either unhooked or without leg loops as a student under winch tow if foot launching.

See? Towing and foot launching AREN'T mutually exclusive procedures for getting airborne.

The issue that ziggyc has brought up has not been addressed.

Yes it has. Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight carefully explained to us all how her lockout and death was entirely her fault. The reason Pat Denevan and Mitch Shipley haven't released any information is because they don't wanna rub it in and cause her family, significant other, friends the additional pain.

He has been stonewalled and not given any details from Mission Soaring, the witnesses present, or USHPA regarding Nancy's fatal accident.

1. CRASH.
2. Is this a great sport or what.

It seems reasonable to me that a loved one would want to know how one's partner died regardless of how it transpired.

Organized crime. Nancy didn't do her homework before signing up.

Stonewalling doesn't help our cause and neither does engaging in pissing contests over irrelevant issues when someone is hurting and frustrated.

Maybe sg can set up another topic heading for debating?

Maybe he can take a lot of credit for the founding of Kite Strings.

I'm not kidding. If pilots want to debate an issue then take into the Debating Ring and other members here can vote on it.

OK, everyone in favor of calling the force transmitted through a towline pressure and a bridle that splits the pressure between the pilot and glider three point...

In fact, a topic debate can be set up as a survey with votes for Pilot A, Pilot B and Draw.

How 'bout a literacy test first?

Each pilot is limited to a set number of words for his/her argument and allowed one rebuttal. Let's face it. Many of us like to argue and debate.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Unlike the FAA's relatively clear-cut legal rules, the practical aspects of weak link technology and application are not so clear-cut. For some people, talking about weak links is more like talking about religion, politics, or global warming--they can get very emotional about it and have difficulty discussing it logically, rationally, or with civility.

02-00820c
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There's nothing wrong with it but there's a time and a place and this isn't either.

Nah, let's keep it clear for the really high quality stuff typical of Jack's Living Room Mutual Masturbation Society.

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/22 18:01:16 UTC

I am not debating anything. I did however respond to comments off topic.
I specifically stated failure to hook in, said nothing about not being in your leg loops.
Has there ever been an incident of any significance that resulted from a failure to hook in when towing?

Yeah. Up to fatal and since the beginning of time.

Brian Scharp - 2016/08/22 18:29:34 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Bille Floyd - 2011/10/27 16:59:26 UTC

Well, I agree with what --Christian ..-- just said about :
only the "Last" check Counts !!

The day i crashed on that Foot launched TOW; i had hooked into the tow bridle And the hang loop for the harness.
THEN
the wind died, and Stayed dead for 10 min.
So i unhooked from the glider and sat on the bace-tube, but left the Bridle attached.

The Wind came back up and i picked up the glider & made a mental pre-launch check. Remembering that i had already hooked in previously --
i deleted the, "lift the glider" part to check for tension on the harness.
and signaled for the driver to GO !!

That was the LAST foot launch with a HG, i'll ever make again, with my :
Real Feet !!

1. What part of that are people having so much trouble understanding?
2. Gene pool would be a lot better if that one had been fatal.

NMERider - 2016/08/22 18:41:58 UTC

Do you ever stop debating and arguing? You don't even listen. You could easily be the poster child for why constructive conversation in the sport of hang gliding is dead and buried.

Cite me some constructive hang gliding conversations. Show me where an unhooked launch fatality postmortem discussion has resulted in more than one individual adopting a hook-in check protocol - let alone an instructor getting on board with the program. And note that there are ZERO instructors teaching hook-in checks or supporting the protocol in discusssions. And make sure you include Eric Hinrichs in that figure.

You are not only dead wrong but I have no interest in explaining why. I have better things to do than waste my breath on those who refuse to listen.

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/22 19:10:20 UTC

I am sorry JD, but your whole interjection and attempt to moderate regarding my comments on this thread make no sense. You have instigated as much debate and engaged in as many arguments as anyone on this forum.

I was having an exchange of thoughts, you are the one inserting yourself here and creating more of your detracting drama...and yet I still like you.

NMERider - 2016/08/22 19:57:33 UTC

I still like you too Matt but as your friend I'm going to have to recommend you get yourself checked for Imperfect Cognitions. You know what they say if the shoe fits...

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:20:33 UTC

Posted in a different thread, but directly related to this conversation re: lockouts

I feel like there seems to be a lot of misconfusion around here...

I'da thunk MISconfusion would be a GOOD thing. But what do I know.

please read, and please think about it...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=390487#390487

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?
Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

Yeah Ryan, I've read it and will deal with it if I live long enough. Really tough to keep on top of the rot you pigfucking pieces o' shit spew out onto mainstream forums on which your protected by u$hPa/Industry operatives.

I need to leave this place...

We'll really miss you, Ryan. Again.

best wishes to you all...

Get fucked.

I care deeply about this sport...

Then you're certainly doing the right thing by leaving a forum.

...and the well-being of all of you that make it what it is...

1. The dwindling number of individuals who have survived in this sport to this point.

2. Yeah guys, thank you SO VERY MUCH for having made it what it is - an institution which leaves every one of us glowing with pride. Keep up the great work.

...(even you, Jono)... but it's just too freaking painful for me to come here and read what people are saying here...

Try Kite Strings sometime, punk. I devote a lot of my efforts to making things as freaking painful as possible for you.

...totally missing the big picture, totally not understanding what is going on... and these people have ratings, drivers licenses, careers?! Please please wake up ya'll... think about it.

But thanks anyway for having made the sport what it is.

Why does a lockout happen.

The autocorrecting aspect of the center of mass bridle is overpowered by adverse yaw and pilots cross controlling.

Who's fault is it (hint: stop blaming inanimate objects like the equipment!)

1. The way we used to when we had Doug Hildreth as our Accident Review Committee Chairman. Certainly not...

ziggyc - 2016/08/18 22:08:22 UTC

Mitch Shipley has proven slow, resistant, and ultimately useless. He's had over 30 days, well over 30 days (which is by far a reasonable amount of time) to complete an investigation. Yet he refuses to do so. He blames it all on not having the time or resources to do it, which is total BS. That's pretty obvious code for the fact that he's covering up some pattern of mistakes on the part of Mission Soaring Center. And USHPA is also protecting the manufacturers of the safety equipment which failed Nancy when she most needed it. There are no do-overs when you're in the air.

http://recreationrrg.com/rrrg-governance
Board and Governance | Recreation Risk Retention Group

Timothy Herr
Secretary and Risk Management Officer
Tim Herr is a practicing attorney in California and serves as corporate counsel for USHPA.

...nowadays.

2. Yeah. Our EQUIPMENT...






...is the ABSOLUTE BEST. If there were anything better...

25-32016
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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

...we'd all be using it already. We hang gliding people certainly aren't STUPID ya know.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png


Really hard to beat those long track records.

NMERider - 2016/08/22 20:51:15 UTC

...(even you, Jono)..

<laughing and crying here> Pilots, please read Ryan's extremely well-written post but first read the entire thread to get the context.

Yeah, it's total fucking rot but extremely well written.

Tormod Helgesen - 2016/08/23 05:38:55 UTC

I agree that it's virtually impossible to launch unhooked from a dolly/cart which is the norm nowadays but unhooked launches have happened in towing. Watch the video I link to (again)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0

11-1118

I'll add that what I disagree in is the claim that towing is safer than foot launching.

And Norway has a totally awesome towing tradition - even better than California's - so we certainly won't be quick to dismiss your opinions on towing safety.

NMERider - 2016/08/23 07:11:29 UTC

I think this thread has proven to be very enlightening...

Incredibly. Beyond all imagination.

...and has spawned other useful threads as well.

Over here anyway.

FINALLY all the way through this one. Now I gotta wade through 47 mostly crap posts in Steve Corbin's idiot topic to catch up to Ryan's extremely well-written post and demolish it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

But giving ultimate control to a non pilot corporate attorney who cares NOTHING for the sport and running an aviation flavor on a foundation of shooting down competence, integrity, character when and where ever they rear their ugly heads ISN'T a recipe for the extinction of hang gliding.

The writing was starting to appear on the wall even before I first clipped into a kite on 1980/04/02.
---
Continuation of this discussion at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9622.html#p9622
Releases

[<BS>]

USHPA Instructor Training Program May 5-7 CA
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=397414#397414

[Steve Davy]

Now let's have a look at some of the outstanding training that Lin Lyons got from Pat.

09:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VWcgla2bak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VWcgla2bak