AT regs
Tad Eareckson - 2009/06/12 12:07:39 UTC
So the next document I submitted was a draft letter to 800 Independence Avenue (kitty-corner to the National Air and Space Museum). THAT document got me LOTS of attention. Still, nobody even then bothered to read either my revisions or even, for that matter, the original terminally stupid SOPs and Guidelines, but I had LOTS of attention.
2009/06/12 15:47:33 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
2009/06/12 12:08:48 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
2009/06/12 14:40:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Richard Bryant
2009/06/12 16:04:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Dan Tuck
2009/06/12 16:38:18 UTC - Sink This! -- i8godzilla
2009/06/12 16:42:12 UTC - Sink This! -- fakeDecoy
Why bother? If a Paul Voight product total shithead such as yourself can figure out that that's the address for the FAA it's really hard to imagine anybody else on the planet needing additional information.Richard Bryant - 2009/06/12 12:37:48 UTC
New Egypt, New Jersey
Why don't you just say 'nobody was listening to me so I went to the FAA'?
Just the sleazy motherfuckers who have no problem whatsoever sending everybody up on cheap inoperable junk and a chintzy loop of fishing line which will break before anyone can get into too much trouble. In other words... ALL OF THEM.Richard Bryant - 2009/06/12 14:39:23 UTC
If the FAA takes your suggestions and makes every pilot, every aerotow operation, possibly every truck or scooter tow operation in the US adhere to strict regulations on our sport (with your fingerprint on it), I'm wondering how many flight parks will BAN YOU from enjoying their services.
WHAT "current release methods"?Out of the tens of thousands of tows a year, whether they be by aerotow, truck or scooter, how many failures have occurred due to the current release methods?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
The aerotow industry tolerates only releases that work only in test fires on the cart or in normal separation at altitude - if that. None of this junk can be blown in an emergency and/or under any kind of tension (what assholes like you refer to as pressure).
P.S. Motherfucker...
If there's one failure of a piece of equipment in a million tows that's too goddam many. And the issue that caused it needs to be identified and fixed before the next glider goes up with it again.
flyhg1 (Bruce) - 2009/06/12 15:55:00 UTC
Nah, I wasn't anywhere NEAR angry enough.Tony Estrada - 2009/06/12 16:36:49 UTC
AT Dude,
You have got to quit being so freaking angry.
So why don't you just tell me what they are? Why don't you tell me how to fix things so that any solo AT pilot can fly a weak link in the middle of the FAA legal/safety range and not have the weak link that counts on the front end of the string?There are many ways to get your point across without being so confrontational.
Bullshit. I didn't start out "in your face" - the way I should have. I cut Jack and Davis and their pet douchebags WAY too much slack.So far, you have decided to be "in your face".
I've noticed. I've noticed that NOTHING has worked for ANYBODY for DECADES. And on the afternoon of 2013/02/02...If case you have not noticed, it is really not working.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
...Zack Marzec noticed - about three seconds too late to do him any good. And Quest and USHGA noticed too - and had to jump through a whole bunch of embarrassing hoops to put out bogus fatality reports and finish gutting the aerotowing SOPs.
No shit, dude.Fly High!
WW Falcon 2 195
WW Sport 2 155
http://www.flyahangglider.com
Insanity - Doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.
I do not want to "win" any of you motherfuckers as my "friends" or "influence" you. I want to fix huge problems in the sport, the sport is entirely about physics, and physics doesn't give a rat's ass about friendships or influence. Our branch of it is mostly about gravity.
And when the shit hits the fan and gravity's about to become a really big issue the most hated, ugly, and inhuman person in hang gliding is gonna be infinitely better off than...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
...a really lovely guy beloved by Clara Moseley, his colleagues at Currituck, Morningside, and Quest, and untold hundreds of students and thrill riders but with half the number of tow points and loops of fishing line in his configuration.Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.
It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
There was a book that came out on 2013/08/06:
MANSON
The Life and Times of Charles Manson
By Jeff Guinn
...that created a lot of buzz and I heard the Terry Gross interview.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/books/a-new-look-at-charles-manson-by-jeff-guinn.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_PeopleLong Before Little Charlie Became the Face of Evil
A New Look at Charles Manson, by Jeff Guinn
His mother's first conviction steered her young son toward a string of reform schools and prisons, places that shaped his education. He listened to pimps explain how to control women. He read the brand-new teachings of Scientology. And, in the kind of touch that keeps "Manson" steadily surprising, Mr. Guinn points straight to a link between Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" to Mr. Manson's methods of persuasion. Among one of Mr. Carnegie's lesser-known statements: "Everything you or I do springs from two motives: the sex urge and the desire to be great." Mr. Manson clearly took that and "Begin in a friendly way" to heart.
How to Win Friends and Influence People
The people who are really excellent at making friends and influencing people are the ones controlling hang gliding - really personable, charismatic, outgoing, friendly types. Dennis Pagen, Mike Robertson, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Mitch Shipley, Paul Voight, Steve Wendt, Joe Greblo... even Bob Kuczewski when one's not paying attention very well. But they're not making friends and influencing people for the benefit of hang gliding and the people participating in it.How to Win Friends and Influence People
Dale Carnegie
1936/10
How to Win Friends and Influence People is one of the first best-selling self-help books ever published. Written by Dale Carnegie and first published in 1936, it has sold 15 million copies world-wide.
Leon Shimkin of the publishing firm Simon & Schuster took one of the 14-week courses given by Carnegie in 1934. Shimkin persuaded Carnegie to let a stenographer take notes from the course to be revised for publication.
In 1981, a new revised edition containing updated language and anecdotes was released.[2] The revised edition reduced the number of sections from 6 to 4, eliminating sections on effective business letters and improving marital satisfaction.
Twelve Things This Book Will Do For You
This section was included in the original 1936 edition as a single page list, which preceded the main content of the book, showing a prospective reader what to expect from it. The 1981 edition omits points 6 to 8 and 11.
01. Get you out of a mental rut, give you new thoughts, new visions, new ambitions.
02. Enable you to make friends quickly and easily.
03. Increase your popularity.
04. Help you to win people to your way of thinking.
05. Increase your influence, your prestige, your ability to get things done.
06. Enable you to win new clients, new customers.
07. Increase your earning power.
08. Make you a better salesman, a better executive.
09. Help you to handle complaints, avoid arguments, keep your human contacts smooth and pleasant.
10. Make you a better speaker, a more entertaining conversationalist.
11. Make the principles of psychology easy for you to apply in your daily contacts.
12. Help you to arouse enthusiasm among your associates.
The book has six major sections. The core principles of each section are quoted below.
Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
01. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
02. Give honest and sincere appreciation.
03. Arouse in the other person an eager want.
Six Ways to Make People Like You
01. Become genuinely interested in other people.
02. Smile.
03. Remember that a person's name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
04. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
05. Talk in terms of the other person's interest.
06. Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.
Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
01. The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
02. Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
03. If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
04. Begin in a friendly way.
05. Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
06. Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
07. Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
08. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
09. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10. Appeal to the nobler motives.
11. Dramatize your ideas.
12. Throw down a challenge.
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
1. Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
2. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
3. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
4. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
5. Let the other person save face.
6. Praise every improvement.
7. Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
8. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
9. Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.
Letters That Produced Miraculous Results
This section was included in the original 1936 edition but omitted from the revised 1981 edition.
In this chapter, notably the shortest in the book, Carnegie analyzes two letters and describes how to appeal to someone's vanity with the term "do me a favor" as opposed to directly asking for something which does not offer the same feeling of importance to the recipient of the request.
Seven Rules For Making Your Home Life Happier
This section was included in the original 1936 edition but omitted from the revised 1981 edition.
1. Don't nag.
2. Don't try to make your partner over.
3. Don't criticize.
4. Give honest appreciation.
5. Pay little attentions.
6. Be courteous.
7. Read a good book on the sexual side of marriage.
So why are you advising me on how to win friends and influence people? Think just maybe I might be right about one or two things and the people running your show may be wrong?
You want instruction based and standards set in accordance with someone's popularity?Increase your popularity.
Is any of this about anybody's way of thinking? If so what are you doing now that's based on somebody's way of thinking rather than your understanding of aviation?Help you to win people to your way of thinking.
Bobby Bailey is a fucking genius and...Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
...the best tow pilot in the business.
Sorry Dale, I'm gonna need at least ten times that many.Six Ways to Make People Like You
Pat Denevan's dedication to towing safety and insistence on only state of the art equipment is...Become genuinely interested in other people.
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
...truly amazing
Smile.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052Remember that a person's name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.
Zach Marzec
I think we're quite OK on that score.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
I think we're OK on that one as well.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?
I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.
You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
I think there very well be a serious issue of doubling the max towline tension by putting weak links on BOTH ends of the bridle. Thank you very much for alerting us to this issue, Juan. And please rely our thanks to Quest and Florida Ridge for the superb training you received.Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
Tad's release
Tad Eareckson - 2008/12/13 13:32:27 UTC
Davis,
Howdy and a zillion thanks for what you've done to establish and maintain this remarkable resource. It's been a real gold mine for researching equipment, it's problems, and accidents trends amongst about anything else one can name.
Also really appreciate your concern for the planet that we, as humans in general and gas guzzling American pilots in particular, are trashing at such a sickening rate. The stuff with leaves, scales, fur, and feathers is all infinitely more important than this stupid sport and a very big motivation for me in pushing some of this technology on which I've been working is to give us our biggest bang per fossil fuel buck and cut down on the ambulance and helicopter rides and wrecked gliders.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1Begin in a friendly way.
Hello US Hawks!!
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/11 19:22:14 UTC
Hi Tad,
Welcome to the US Hawks!! We're glad to have you here.
The practice of banning people from national forums has been destructive to hang gliding, and it has isolated some of the most passionate and potentially productive members of the flying community. It's by an unfortunate twist of fate that the two main national forums have ended up being run by people with such thin skins that they reach for the "ban button" whenever they can't win an argument. I'm hoping the US Hawks can remedy that by being a place where ALL voices can be heard.
We don't have too much to offer at this time, but the one thing we can offer is free speech.
Did you get a hang check back in the setup area?Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
Is that a fresh weak link?
Is your hook knife properly tethered to your harness?
Have you practiced hitting that release lever adequately?
Have you mastered the full flare no stepper well enough to land in that narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
Zach Marzec
Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC
How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?
I think that a laminated checklist that you stow inside your nose cone before moving up to launch is an EXCELLENT idea for making sure you're hooked in and have your leg loops when you run off the ramp.Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3035Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
Tad's Barrel Release and maybe an alternative
No Jim, I'm deeply indebted to you for recognizing a lethal flaw in my straight pin barrel release and forcing me to correct it. You're not a self serving lying piece of shit. And thank God for bestowing you with such a keen intellect.Jim Rooney - 2008/02/11 23:09:18 UTC
Here we go, reinventing the wheel again.
Couple erroneous conclusions....
A Bailey release can not be rigged incorrectly. Yours was either a bad copy or an incomplete/defective release. A proper Bailey release has a rivot stop in it that prevents it from being rigged wrong. Yours did not have this.
After arguing this with Tadd, he eventually "fixed" the same "problem" with his barrel release... a "problem" that was already "fixed" in with the Bailey release. Before he added the stop, you could rig his the same way.
So....
Why are we reinventing the wheel again?
What advantage does a straight pin have over a curved pin?
Yes Jim, I'm quite:Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
- sure that if there were a better piece of equipment for this job everyone would be using it.
- confident that whatever's going on back there with my glider you can fix by giving me the rope.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Appeal to the nobler motives.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
NONE of this is about ANYONE's fucking IDEAS.Dramatize your ideas.
Yeah...Throw down a challenge.
That'll work.Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
For over thirty years worth of unbridled incompetence, stupidity, duplicity, and corruption?Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpgCall attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg
Nice pair of prosthetics you've got there, Bille... What happened to the originals?
Ever trusting any of these motherfuckers on anything.Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Sure...Let the other person save face.
Why not? What have we got to lose?Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC
Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?
What if everything's moving inexorably backwards? Should we just praise the assholes degenerating at the slowest rate?Praise every improvement.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Done.Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Like that?Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 04:53:00 UTC
It ONLY took six weak link breaks (in a row) to figure out something was wrong.
I am impressed. It's truly amazing. A fine display of perception, logic, and quick thinking.
Sure...Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.
Peter Birren - 2012/05/17 14:53:03 UTC
I deleted your last note to the Towing List. Far too long and off topic.
Make me work too much and I'll be deleting you as well. Your rants and bullying attempts will not be tolerated. (Save that line for later use to prove how persecuted you are.)
Keep it on topic and readable, no problem.
Why not?Tad Eareckson - 2012/05/17 15:26:57 UTC
Get fucked.
Way south of totally fucking useless for what needs to be done and what we're doing. This is an instruction manual for consolidating personal influence, power, wealth. That's the problem we're dealing with - not the solution.
The people who want to do and are capable of doing this right don't need to be motivated through flattery and manipulation. They're motivated by loves of aviation, math, science, logic, competence, perfection and desires not to get their necks snapped and all they need is to get started in the right direction.
The assholes who would respond positively to these strategies have already responded to them. Their souls are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the Kool-Aid distributors and NOTHING is gonna get them back - EVER.
