instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12443
AT regs
Tad Eareckson - 2009/06/12 12:07:39 UTC

So the next document I submitted was a draft letter to 800 Independence Avenue (kitty-corner to the National Air and Space Museum). THAT document got me LOTS of attention. Still, nobody even then bothered to read either my revisions or even, for that matter, the original terminally stupid SOPs and Guidelines, but I had LOTS of attention.
2009/06/12 15:47:33 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
2009/06/12 12:08:48 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
2009/06/12 14:40:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Richard Bryant
2009/06/12 16:04:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Dan Tuck
2009/06/12 16:38:18 UTC - Sink This! -- i8godzilla
2009/06/12 16:42:12 UTC - Sink This! -- fakeDecoy
Richard Bryant - 2009/06/12 12:37:48 UTC
New Egypt, New Jersey

Why don't you just say 'nobody was listening to me so I went to the FAA'?

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Why bother? If a Paul Voight product total shithead such as yourself can figure out that that's the address for the FAA it's really hard to imagine anybody else on the planet needing additional information.
Richard Bryant - 2009/06/12 14:39:23 UTC

If the FAA takes your suggestions and makes every pilot, every aerotow operation, possibly every truck or scooter tow operation in the US adhere to strict regulations on our sport (with your fingerprint on it), I'm wondering how many flight parks will BAN YOU from enjoying their services.
Just the sleazy motherfuckers who have no problem whatsoever sending everybody up on cheap inoperable junk and a chintzy loop of fishing line which will break before anyone can get into too much trouble. In other words... ALL OF THEM.
Out of the tens of thousands of tows a year, whether they be by aerotow, truck or scooter, how many failures have occurred due to the current release methods?
WHAT "current release methods"?

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http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
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The aerotow industry tolerates only releases that work only in test fires on the cart or in normal separation at altitude - if that. None of this junk can be blown in an emergency and/or under any kind of tension (what assholes like you refer to as pressure).

P.S. Motherfucker...

If there's one failure of a piece of equipment in a million tows that's too goddam many. And the issue that caused it needs to be identified and fixed before the next glider goes up with it again.
flyhg1 (Bruce) - 2009/06/12 15:55:00 UTC

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Tony Estrada - 2009/06/12 16:36:49 UTC

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AT Dude,
You have got to quit being so freaking angry. Image Image
Nah, I wasn't anywhere NEAR angry enough.
There are many ways to get your point across without being so confrontational.
So why don't you just tell me what they are? Why don't you tell me how to fix things so that any solo AT pilot can fly a weak link in the middle of the FAA legal/safety range and not have the weak link that counts on the front end of the string?
So far, you have decided to be "in your face".
Bullshit. I didn't start out "in your face" - the way I should have. I cut Jack and Davis and their pet douchebags WAY too much slack.
If case you have not noticed, it is really not working.
I've noticed. I've noticed that NOTHING has worked for ANYBODY for DECADES. And on the afternoon of 2013/02/02...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
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...Zack Marzec noticed - about three seconds too late to do him any good. And Quest and USHGA noticed too - and had to jump through a whole bunch of embarrassing hoops to put out bogus fatality reports and finish gutting the aerotowing SOPs.
Fly High!

WW Falcon 2 195
WW Sport 2 155
http://www.flyahangglider.com
Insanity - Doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.
No shit, dude.

I do not want to "win" any of you motherfuckers as my "friends" or "influence" you. I want to fix huge problems in the sport, the sport is entirely about physics, and physics doesn't give a rat's ass about friendships or influence. Our branch of it is mostly about gravity.

And when the shit hits the fan and gravity's about to become a really big issue the most hated, ugly, and inhuman person in hang gliding is gonna be infinitely better off than...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.

It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
...a really lovely guy beloved by Clara Moseley, his colleagues at Currituck, Morningside, and Quest, and untold hundreds of students and thrill riders but with half the number of tow points and loops of fishing line in his configuration.

There was a book that came out on 2013/08/06:

MANSON
The Life and Times of Charles Manson
By Jeff Guinn

...that created a lot of buzz and I heard the Terry Gross interview.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/books/a-new-look-at-charles-manson-by-jeff-guinn.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Long Before Little Charlie Became the Face of Evil
A New Look at Charles Manson, by Jeff Guinn

His mother's first conviction steered her young son toward a string of reform schools and prisons, places that shaped his education. He listened to pimps explain how to control women. He read the brand-new teachings of Scientology. And, in the kind of touch that keeps "Manson" steadily surprising, Mr. Guinn points straight to a link between Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" to Mr. Manson's methods of persuasion. Among one of Mr. Carnegie's lesser-known statements: "Everything you or I do springs from two motives: the sex urge and the desire to be great." Mr. Manson clearly took that and "Begin in a friendly way" to heart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People
How to Win Friends and Influence People
How to Win Friends and Influence People
Dale Carnegie
1936/10

How to Win Friends and Influence People is one of the first best-selling self-help books ever published. Written by Dale Carnegie and first published in 1936, it has sold 15 million copies world-wide.

Leon Shimkin of the publishing firm Simon & Schuster took one of the 14-week courses given by Carnegie in 1934. Shimkin persuaded Carnegie to let a stenographer take notes from the course to be revised for publication.

In 1981, a new revised edition containing updated language and anecdotes was released.[2] The revised edition reduced the number of sections from 6 to 4, eliminating sections on effective business letters and improving marital satisfaction.

Twelve Things This Book Will Do For You

This section was included in the original 1936 edition as a single page list, which preceded the main content of the book, showing a prospective reader what to expect from it. The 1981 edition omits points 6 to 8 and 11.

01. Get you out of a mental rut, give you new thoughts, new visions, new ambitions.
02. Enable you to make friends quickly and easily.
03. Increase your popularity.
04. Help you to win people to your way of thinking.
05. Increase your influence, your prestige, your ability to get things done.
06. Enable you to win new clients, new customers.
07. Increase your earning power.
08. Make you a better salesman, a better executive.
09. Help you to handle complaints, avoid arguments, keep your human contacts smooth and pleasant.
10. Make you a better speaker, a more entertaining conversationalist.
11. Make the principles of psychology easy for you to apply in your daily contacts.
12. Help you to arouse enthusiasm among your associates.

The book has six major sections. The core principles of each section are quoted below.

Fundamental Techniques in Handling People

01. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
02. Give honest and sincere appreciation.
03. Arouse in the other person an eager want.

Six Ways to Make People Like You

01. Become genuinely interested in other people.
02. Smile.
03. Remember that a person's name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
04. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
05. Talk in terms of the other person's interest.
06. Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

01. The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
02. Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
03. If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
04. Begin in a friendly way.
05. Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
06. Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
07. Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
08. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
09. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10. Appeal to the nobler motives.
11. Dramatize your ideas.
12. Throw down a challenge.

Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment

1. Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
2. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
3. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
4. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
5. Let the other person save face.
6. Praise every improvement.
7. Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
8. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
9. Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.

Letters That Produced Miraculous Results

This section was included in the original 1936 edition but omitted from the revised 1981 edition.

In this chapter, notably the shortest in the book, Carnegie analyzes two letters and describes how to appeal to someone's vanity with the term "do me a favor" as opposed to directly asking for something which does not offer the same feeling of importance to the recipient of the request.

Seven Rules For Making Your Home Life Happier

This section was included in the original 1936 edition but omitted from the revised 1981 edition.

1. Don't nag.
2. Don't try to make your partner over.
3. Don't criticize.
4. Give honest appreciation.
5. Pay little attentions.
6. Be courteous.
7. Read a good book on the sexual side of marriage.
The people who are really excellent at making friends and influencing people are the ones controlling hang gliding - really personable, charismatic, outgoing, friendly types. Dennis Pagen, Mike Robertson, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Mitch Shipley, Paul Voight, Steve Wendt, Joe Greblo... even Bob Kuczewski when one's not paying attention very well. But they're not making friends and influencing people for the benefit of hang gliding and the people participating in it.

So why are you advising me on how to win friends and influence people? Think just maybe I might be right about one or two things and the people running your show may be wrong?
Increase your popularity.
You want instruction based and standards set in accordance with someone's popularity?
Help you to win people to your way of thinking.
Is any of this about anybody's way of thinking? If so what are you doing now that's based on somebody's way of thinking rather than your understanding of aviation?
Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
Bobby Bailey is a fucking genius and...

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...the best tow pilot in the business.
Six Ways to Make People Like You
Sorry Dale, I'm gonna need at least ten times that many.
Become genuinely interested in other people.
Pat Denevan's dedication to towing safety and insistence on only state of the art equipment is...

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
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...truly amazing
Smile.
:)
Remember that a person's name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I think we're quite OK on that score.
The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
I think we're OK on that one as well.
Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
I think there very well be a serious issue of doubling the max towline tension by putting weak links on BOTH ends of the bridle. Thank you very much for alerting us to this issue, Juan. And please rely our thanks to Quest and Florida Ridge for the superb training you received.
If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release
Tad Eareckson - 2008/12/13 13:32:27 UTC

Davis,

Howdy and a zillion thanks for what you've done to establish and maintain this remarkable resource. It's been a real gold mine for researching equipment, it's problems, and accidents trends amongst about anything else one can name.

Also really appreciate your concern for the planet that we, as humans in general and gas guzzling American pilots in particular, are trashing at such a sickening rate. The stuff with leaves, scales, fur, and feathers is all infinitely more important than this stupid sport and a very big motivation for me in pushing some of this technology on which I've been working is to give us our biggest bang per fossil fuel buck and cut down on the ambulance and helicopter rides and wrecked gliders.
Begin in a friendly way.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1
Hello US Hawks!!
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/11 19:22:14 UTC

Hi Tad,

Welcome to the US Hawks!! We're glad to have you here.

The practice of banning people from national forums has been destructive to hang gliding, and it has isolated some of the most passionate and potentially productive members of the flying community. It's by an unfortunate twist of fate that the two main national forums have ended up being run by people with such thin skins that they reach for the "ban button" whenever they can't win an argument. I'm hoping the US Hawks can remedy that by being a place where ALL voices can be heard.

We don't have too much to offer at this time, but the one thing we can offer is free speech.
Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
Did you get a hang check back in the setup area?
Is that a fresh weak link?
Is your hook knife properly tethered to your harness?
Have you practiced hitting that release lever adequately?
Have you mastered the full flare no stepper well enough to land in that narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?
Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?
Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
I think that a laminated checklist that you stow inside your nose cone before moving up to launch is an EXCELLENT idea for making sure you're hooked in and have your leg loops when you run off the ramp.
Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3035
Tad's Barrel Release and maybe an alternative
Jim Rooney - 2008/02/11 23:09:18 UTC

Here we go, reinventing the wheel again.

Couple erroneous conclusions....

A Bailey release can not be rigged incorrectly. Yours was either a bad copy or an incomplete/defective release. A proper Bailey release has a rivot stop in it that prevents it from being rigged wrong. Yours did not have this.

After arguing this with Tadd, he eventually "fixed" the same "problem" with his barrel release... a "problem" that was already "fixed" in with the Bailey release. Before he added the stop, you could rig his the same way.

So....
Why are we reinventing the wheel again?
What advantage does a straight pin have over a curved pin?
No Jim, I'm deeply indebted to you for recognizing a lethal flaw in my straight pin barrel release and forcing me to correct it. You're not a self serving lying piece of shit. And thank God for bestowing you with such a keen intellect.
Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
Yes Jim, I'm quite:
- sure that if there were a better piece of equipment for this job everyone would be using it.
- confident that whatever's going on back there with my glider you can fix by giving me the rope.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Appeal to the nobler motives.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
Dramatize your ideas.
NONE of this is about ANYONE's fucking IDEAS.
Throw down a challenge.
Yeah...
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06

Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.

Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.

I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
That'll work.
Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
For over thirty years worth of unbridled incompetence, stupidity, duplicity, and corruption?
Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png
Image
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg

Nice pair of prosthetics you've got there, Bille... What happened to the originals?
Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ever trusting any of these motherfuckers on anything.
Let the other person save face.
Sure...
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC

Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?
Why not? What have we got to lose?
Praise every improvement.
What if everything's moving inexorably backwards? Should we just praise the assholes degenerating at the slowest rate?
Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Done.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 04:53:00 UTC

It ONLY took six weak link breaks (in a row) to figure out something was wrong.
I am impressed. It's truly amazing. A fine display of perception, logic, and quick thinking.
Like that?
Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.
Sure...
Peter Birren - 2012/05/17 14:53:03 UTC

I deleted your last note to the Towing List. Far too long and off topic.

Make me work too much and I'll be deleting you as well. Your rants and bullying attempts will not be tolerated. (Save that line for later use to prove how persecuted you are.)

Keep it on topic and readable, no problem.
Tad Eareckson - 2012/05/17 15:26:57 UTC

Get fucked.
Why not?

Way south of totally fucking useless for what needs to be done and what we're doing. This is an instruction manual for consolidating personal influence, power, wealth. That's the problem we're dealing with - not the solution.

The people who want to do and are capable of doing this right don't need to be motivated through flattery and manipulation. They're motivated by loves of aviation, math, science, logic, competence, perfection and desires not to get their necks snapped and all they need is to get started in the right direction.

The assholes who would respond positively to these strategies have already responded to them. Their souls are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the Kool-Aid distributors and NOTHING is gonna get them back - EVER.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4rD3MhFATA


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30105
wing suit death
Greg Porter - 2013/10/13 11:31:37 UTC

The loss of life is a tragedy, and I'm sure if he was given the option, in hindsight, to drop the sport and live that he would drop it in a heartbeat.
Rewind the Zack Marzec tape. Take out the tumble and let him pull out of the dive two feet off the deck. What are he, Quest, the aerotow industry, USHGA, hang gliding gonna do any differently?
It's an interesting study then, in why higher risk sports are pursued, knowing the potential for death is increased. All activities contain the risk of death, from slipping in the shower to wingsuit jumping, and we each find a risk balance in our pursuits that we are personally comfortable with.
Risk in this sport is almost entirely inflicted:
- by the assholes controlling it; and
- through the incompetence and choices of its participants.
The reality is we...
Define "we".
...in HG assume greater risks than most are comfortable with...
Bullshit. The main reasons hang glider people are rare as hens' teeth in the population at large:
- training requirements
- aptitude
- incompetent, backwards, sadistic instruction approaches
- expense
- time demands
- opportunity limited by availability of flying sites
- penalties for incompetence (not to be confused with inherent risk)

Here's THE biggie, Greg:
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
The industry MANDATES insanely dangerous landings from Day One, Flight One so:

- a lot of people DON'T fly hang gliders

- there's a grotesquely high percentage of the few people we manage to bring in going right back out again with serious and often permanently life altering injuries
...and why?
Don't tax your brain too much on this one, Greg. Anybody who can't figure out what the fuck a hook-in check is won't be coming up with any useful insights.
That's one question I have asked myself... to try and put my finger on how to describe why I enjoy this sport enough to assume the risk...
Self inflicted risk, dude.
...and then I wonder if I really have a grasp of what that risk truly is.
You needn't wonder. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of grasping it.
Additionally, I would say that most of us are probably not comfortable with taking up the wingsuit sport (or we'd be doing it).
I'd say it holds absolutely no appeal whatsoever to the vast majority of us - that a typical hang glider pilot isn't an adrenalin junkie, he's in it 'cause he gets an incredible thrill out of being able to fly like a bird, at regular bird speeds, sometimes for hours and thousands of feet or, on the dunes, a few feet or inches above the surface. That's where I'm coming from anyway - and I think you can draw that conclusion about the vast majority of other people by watching their videos.

Watch Jonathan's videos for example. He's totally into:
- getting as high as he possibly can
- staying up
- going far
- playing with the Redtails, Eagles, Condors...
- minimizing the risk as much as possible (not that he succeeds all that well in that category)
So why do those guys do that?
Who gives a rat's ass? We've got enough problems of our own to fix before we take on the ones of those guys - mainly coming a little too close and parachute malfunctions. And talking about them isn't doing a goddam thing to help our situation.

And, by the way, Greg... I don't believe I've seen any videos of you doing low level high speed skims or aerobatics.
After watching the video Phoenix linked to here and seeing the shot from a distance of the guy rocketing over the terrain it reminded me of a couple of things... the first was watching several vids of HG's swooping terrain like Wolfi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0o6gJmjlEQ
I ALMOST took a shot at flying under this bridge:

Image

at Hyner in '91. I was lined up in calm morning air and thinking seriously - but I figured I'd catch too much flak.
...and the second was the experience of going 200 mph on a Hayabusa I had a few years ago. Have no vid of that but this one was at 180 on a ZX9R (the statute of limitations has probably expired but I still won't admit to being the rider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSqvrkN7yo4


Both these examples are a rush of speed while near the terrain. I can't speak to the HG swooping, but on the MC it's intoxicating, and after experiencing it there is no driving of normal autos that comes close (an interesting side effect was that driving cars 'fast' was no longer thrilling... what was the point? So I actually drive more sensibly since then).

All that diatribe was to get to three thoughts. The first is that I can see how wing suit flying is simply a progression along the spectrum of the challenge and thrill of experiencing speed close to the terrain - it's an HG swoop on steroids, with risk on steroids along with it.
Not necessarily. The guy who inspired this discussion - Victor Kovats - didn't die because of the risk of tons of speed close to the terrain. He died because his parachute malfunctioned and there was no possible Plan B.
The other two are questions...

- Why do we take the risks we do to enjoy this sport, when death is a very real potential? (And don't say it's a low risk sport... a blown launch, not hooked in, a mid-air, etc).
Where and why are we seeing the crashes, injuries, deaths in this sport?

Foot launches are dangerous - but that risk is manageable. Be careful, use adequate crew, pick your cycle. If things are iffy nobody's got a gun to your head forcing you to go.

Tow launches... With proper equipment and competent drivers brain dead easy and safe. You elect to use crap equipment and an asshole driver so fuck off.

Unhooked launches are easily one hundred percent preventable with proper procedures. You elect to violate the proper procedures so fuck off.
And finally the question I still haven't found the answer to...
And the previous ones.
What do I enjoy about this sport that, in my mind, justifies the risk?
Elective and unnecessary.
I haven't yet been able to verbalize what it is, and maybe that's because I can't comprehend it myself.
Do some more work on comprehension.
Why aren't we content to sit on the couch and watch somebody else fly a hang glider on TV ?
I have to be because you motherfuckers wouldn't follow and implement regulations to keep assholes from risking my life on every flight I took. And it's fuckin' miserable.
Maybe if I could figure that one out I'd begin to understand why wing suiters are willing to be inches from disaster...
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
DocSoc - 2007/11/14

Weak Link Break, scary cause the wing didn't fly till about 24 inches from the ground!
...and we are comfortable at being mere yards from the same... Image
We're not crashing gliders 'cause we're flying them yards, feet, or inches off the surface.

Fix the fuckin' obvious problems. The inherent risks that'll be left over are such a drop in the existing bucket that they're barely worth talking about.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12443
AT regs
Mark G. Forbes - 2009/06/13 04:27:43 UTC
Corvallis, Oregon

I just read the proposed changes that Tad posted. First I've heard of them. I know he was threatening to send a letter to the FAA, and I heard about *that*, but before that time I'd heard nothing.
"THREATENING" to send a letter to the FAA? Why should somebody sending a letter to the FAA be perceived as a threat? All you aerotow operators are highly competent professionals deeply concerned about safety and operating far above the existing minimum regulations, standards, guidelines - right?
I wasn't in the aerotow committee meeting at the last BOD, because I was busy doing another committee at that time.
There is no "Aerotow" Committee - asshole.
I have an assortment of concerns...
I'm absolutely positive you do.
...starting with the use of the word "infallible"...
OK, let's scratch that out so we can accommodate...
Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk. Towing and flying hang gliders is inherently dangerous.
...the shoddy noncompliant crap that all your buddies have gotten comfortable perpetrating on the public.
...and continuing on from there.
I'm all ears. Let's gut away.
Partly what bothers me is that the proposed language doesn't reflect the current state of the art...
- Don't you think "art" is a rather over-dignified term for the way aerotowing is being conducted?
- Right. It IS so much more convenient to degrade the standards than to bring the equipment up to compliance.
...particularly with regard to towing by light sport aircraft, which almost all of our tugs are. It's fairly rare to have a true Part 103 legal tug, and I don't know of one that could provide 250 pounds of towing force. Even Ray's little 447-powered Mustang trike is too heavy for Part 103, and my big honkin' Venus with a 582 is WAAAAY too massive. I'm sure that Ray's little trike doesn't pull anywhere near 250 pounds.
- The section, as I've said before, I just copied and pasted from the long time EXISTING USHGA REGULATIONS - shithead.

- But, what with fuck... With Bobby Fucking-Genius's tow mast breakaway in the equation what difference could adequate thrust / safe climb rates possibly make anyway?
Tad, you need to get some face time in the next committee meeting, in addition to sending out emails and posting PDFs.
- Fuck you guys. I need to spend twenty minutes disinfecting my computer every time I download anything anybody from your crowd has posted. I don't ever wanna be within a thousand yard radius of any of your actual faces.

- People of use, the ones on the right side of this equation, don't need or care about faces.
You won't get anywhere with this if you don't get people working WITH you...
- The people you're talking about have values and goals 180 degrees in opposition to mine. Their interests are centered in exploiting hang gliding - not protecting or advancing it.

- I don't want or care about people working with ME. I want them understanding and working with the physics. That's how aviation works. Wilbur and Orville figured out and explained the physics and people got it and rocketed forward on their own with no further input from them.
...and the attitude so far hasn't given folks much reason to climb onto your bandwagon.
Fine. I'm quite content to have them far off my bandwagon and...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
Image
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

...splattering themselves all over runways and trying to write believable fatality reports.
Things don't happen immediately...
You'd be fuckin' AMAZED...
Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
...at just how fast shit can happen in this game. And I notice it only took five days from Zack Marzec's impact to do an unprecedented gutting of the aerotowing SOPs. Really wonderful how efficiently things can run when everyone's on the same page.
...but good ideas do eventually get implemented if you keep after it and persevere.
Sure they do...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues
Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
...pigfucker.
I think you may have SOME good ideas here, and SOME of them may be worth incorporating into our SOPs.
I don't give a flying fuck what you "THINK".
The next BOD meeting is probably going to be mid-November (we're still working out the dates) and it'll be in Austin, Texas.
Texas. Great...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
Image

Hard to beat when you're looking for support of some opinion or other.
You should plan to be there, in addition to working with the members of the aerotow committee by email in the interim.
I already told Trisa he was a fucking moron over the wire. What would be the point?
Action comes more swiftly when there's a clear threat to safety.
Goddam right. Just not action to fix the problem - rather action to extinguish as much evidence as possible that there was documentation of the fix for the problem BEFORE the guy got killed.
I'm not seeing evidence (in the form of accidents or fatalities) that demonstrate that there's a major problem.
No. Of course not...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Loss of control of dangerously compromised glider to try to access the release.
Catastrophic failure of the:
- primary release upon access
- "backup" release
- weak link to break before the glider gets into too much trouble

But...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use 2 hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...nothing in the form of accidents or fatalities so just no problem.
There may be room for improvement...
There MAY?
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
Where do you think?
...and that's certainly worth considering as we review and update...
...and degrade...
..our procedures, but I don't see the urgency of adopting these changes without careful consideration and the input of lots of other people involved in aerotowing.
- Which people involved in aerotowing? The gas jockeys controlling it?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
Or the hang glider pilots...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...who'd prefer to act as Pilots In Command of their own planes?

- GOOD. Let's crash and kill as many people involved in aerotowing as we possibly can.
I'd want to hear what Steve Wendt, Jim Rooney, Malcolm Jones, Bobby Bailey, Steve Kroop, Dave Glover, John Kemmeries, Hungary Joe and others have to say as well.
Me too. I found all of their comments on the Zack Marzec fatality to be MOST interesting - as I indeed found yours to be.
As your proposed language stands today, I would vote against it based on my concerns.
GOOD.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

This article was peer-reviewed and approved for publication by the USHPA Towing Committee.
Just keep on voting for the crap that Trisa exudes.
That's not to say that you're wrong, but I haven't bought into your proposal yet myself, and I haven't heard other viewpoints sufficient to form an opinion that's favorable.
Did you consult Zack Marzec?
Tad Eareckson - 2009/06/12 12:07:39 UTC

I rewrote the SOPs along with the document referenced therein - the AT Guidelines - and posted the revisions for review and discussion by members of the Committee and:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/

the forum upon which the discussion originated, prior to the 2009/03/27 Board of Directors Meeting in Colorado Springs at which the documents were to be addressed.

Over those weeks I made close to thirty posts announcing and describing various tweaks I was making to the documents and calling for comments, opinions, input and got virtually NOTHING by way of response.
Mark G. Forbes - 2009/06/13 04:41:48 UTC

It might surprise you, but I don't read that forum.
Yeah, big fuckin' surprise.
I doubt many directors do.
Another big fuckin' surprise.
We *do* have other aspects to our lives.
I never doubted that for a nanosecond.
I used to read it, but the S/N ratio got to be too low to bother with it.
No shit. Maybe that should've been a clue that we've got some serious issues that all you assholes who have other aspects to your lives should've been dealing with.
Same for many of the other yahoo groups.
All glider discussion groups. Consequence of all the people who know what the fuck they're talking about...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder
Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site.
...getting selected out of the gene pool.
At a hundred-plus emails a day right now, I have to filter pretty hard.
Try filtering out some of the Viagra spam and leaving a little more room for the postmortem discussions.
I realize you're frustrated...
I blasted by frustrated eons ago.
...but while you may perceive that you've been working for years to get changes made, I have never heard of you until recently.
Yeah, with your head that far up your ass I can see how you might have missed me. But...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
There's nobody who hasn't heard of me in this point in hang gliding history.
If you were trying all that time to raise an issue, you sure weren't making an impression on anyone.
Bullshit, motherfucker. I was making enough of an impression to get blacklisted from every aerotow operation in the country.
Your threat to go crying off to FAA (at least that's what it looked like at this end)...
- The ass end.

- Again - WHAT threat? You're not seeing evidence (in the form of accidents or fatalities) that demonstrate that there's a MAJOR problem, right? So the FAA wouldn't either, right?
...got a big, "Who the heck is THIS guy???"
- Nobody said, "Who the 'HECK' is THIS guy???"

- And ya know what Dr. Trisa Tilletti's last "Higher Education" magazine article got?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?
michael170 - 2012/06/06 03:14:26 UTC

Did anyone here bother to read Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman's thirteen page idiotic article in the June issue of USHPA's worthless magazine?
NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are.
Pardon me while I puke. Image
- Why would anybody with a brain the size of a walnut or better give a rat's ass who the fuck "this guy" was? Either the points were legitimate or they weren't.

- And we know they were legitimate because USHGA responded immediately by deleting the regulation requiring HGMA certification of the glider.
You need to build alliances to get things done in a representative organization, starting with your own local regional directors, Felipe Amunategui and LE Herrick.
FUCK them - and everyone else who has any standing in that vile organization.
Felipe is an accomplished aerotow pilot...
Yeah, name a tug driver who isn't.
...and LE works in Washington for the Department of Transportation (I think) in pipeline safety.
And I'll bet she's really excellent at inspecting pipelines.
I'd strongly suggest that you get together with Felipe and review your concerns with him to start.
Fuck him.
Felipe Amunategui - 1996/12

The day before the accident was clear, and in the still air sunrise Bill towed me to 4,000 feet AGL. It was a beautiful and peaceful ride down. We spent the rest of the day towing, and at the end of the day Bill, Mike and I discussed tandem tow procedures and regulations. We also practiced the whole procedure simulating the tow by hanging from a tree. I had things to do the next day, so I would not make my tandem flights until the next weekend. That evening was the last time I saw of my friends Mike and Bill. The following evening things changed horribly for all of us whose lives had been touched by them.

It took a while before I could get under a wing again, and some of our fellow pilots may never do so after this. We all react to tragedy in our own way. I knew Mike well, and I am certain that he would have never wanted to discourage others from flying safely, yet I know he would have respected each one's decision and ways of dealing with the pain. Also, I am certain that Mike would want us to learn how to avoid a similar tragedy. We owe it to Mike and Bill to further refine aerotowing in general and tandem towing in particular. Mike left us a legacy in the form of a community of hang glider pilots where there had been none, a community that helped its members ease the pain of his departure. We owe it to him to keep it alive.
In the 27 years since that crash he never lifted a goddam finger to do anything to reduce the likelihood of a rerun. And we've had plenty of reruns - and a couple with identical consequences.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34204
Scooter towing at Icare Cup 2013
Davis Straub - 2013/10/10 15:41:36 UTC

A completely different system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_iXlVKrE-w
A winch "captive" delta system which allows you to discover the pleasures of flying to non-flight initiated. No need for piloting on the flight. A concept well suited to the promotion of our sport.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Thanks to Antoine Saraf.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
Checkout the lines stabilizing the wings.
Sure, Davis. And check out the kinds of effects you can get when remove the line that stabilizes the nose:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png
Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release
Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image
Peter D - 2013/10/14 05:30:19 UTC

Interesting idea.
Yeah. Let's kill it so we can continue keeping students as safe as possible...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939
Weak link breaks?
Jim Rooney - 2005/08/31 23:46:25 UTC

As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
...using only the "tried and true" methods developed by our highly qualified individual asses.
What stops the wing stalling?
Pretty basic stuff...
Donnell Hewett - 1985/08
THE SKYTING CRITERIA
CONSTANT TENSION
The tension in the towline must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight.
GRADUAL TRANSITIONS
The transition to and from tow as well as any variations while on tow must be gradual in nature.
ADEQUATE POWER
The system must contain a source of power adequate to maintain a safe mode of flight while under tow.
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
Adequate power, constant tension, gradual increases and decreases, NO CUTS UNDER *ANY* CIRCUMSTANCES.
A rope break could be fatal...
Well DUH!
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
It just doesn't get any more basic than that.
...so it would important to check for wear regularly.
Not really...
Donnell Hewett - 1985/08

INFALLIBLE WEAK LINK

The system must include a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4597
Weaklinks
Donnell Hewett - 2005/02/08 23:28:13 UTC

The sole purpose and function of this weaklink is to limit the towline tension to a manageable level, i.e. a level such that the pilot can still maintain control of the aircraft in the event that the weaklink breaks.

The appropriate strength of a weaklink depends upon pilot skill. A skillful pilot can maintain control when a stronger weaklink breaks whereas a less skillful pilot cannot. As a general rule, a beginning pilot should limit his towline tension to .5-g and an experienced pilot to 1-g. Only highly experienced pilots qualified to perform aerobatics while on tow should use a 2-g or stronger weaklink while being pulled forward (such as when aerotowing).
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
Just make sure you've got some 130 pound test fishing line in the system.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2013/10/14

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
It increases the safety of the towing operation by breaking before the glider can get into too much trouble - nothing at all like the kind of really serious shit that can happen as a consequence of a rope break, premature release, or operator cutting the power. Entirely manageable, bit of inconvenience at the worst.
This is also very basic stuff...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.
I'm a bit surprised that you didn't think through this a little better before raising the issue.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34204
Scooter towing at Icare Cup 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_iXlVKrE-w
Peter D - 2013/10/14 05:30:19 UTC

Interesting idea.
What stops the wing stalling?
A rope break could be fatal, so it would important to check for wear regularly.
Gerry Grossnegger - 2013/10/14 20:48:07 UTC

Looks like a WW Giant Condor. Probably has nice smooth transitions from fly to mush to plow to parachute.
The tow bridle is attached right to the nose so that would keep it down really well.
So Peter feels that you need to check the rope for wear regularly because a break could be fatal and you think that a bridle connection at the nose would keep it down really well.

But nobody sees ANYTHING wrong with THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png
Image

configuration. Nothing that could POSSIBLY have been altered or added to reduce the probability of the fatality that occurred with it as it was.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
Go fuck yourself, Gerry.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34204
Scooter towing at Icare Cup 2013
Marc Fink - 2013/10/15 23:19:54 UTC

I knew somebody...
Santos Mendoza.
...who tried to develop a tethered wings system somewhat like this...
BULLSHIT. It was ABSOLUTELY *NOTHING* like that. It was an under the bar one point three-string truck tow bridle.
...but it also was on a roundabout pulley system.
What's a "roundabout pulley system"?
A friend...
Frank Sauber - hopefully not a friend.
...enthusiastically volunteered to be a test pilot.
- BULLSHIT. He wanted to get in some landing repetitions so he could relearn to stop on his feet consistently enough to score his goddam Three. There was absolutely nothing enthusiastic about his approach - he didn't even want to max out the altitude that system allowed.

- What's a "test pilot"? What has a hang glider "test pilot" ever discovered in the air that wasn't freakin' obvious on the ground?
He got killed.
He locked out on a conventional release that stank on ice and slammed in - 1996/04/28.

So what's your point, douchebag?
- Name a tow system - other than this one, of course - that somebody HASN'T been demolished on.
- Tell me how Frank Sauber got the tiniest bit more killed than Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, or Zack Marzec.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34204
Scooter towing at Icare Cup 2013
Davis Straub - 2013/10/15 22:27:04 UTC

Not a WW Condor.
Yes it is - asshole.
Arp - 2013/10/15 23:26:41 UTC

Looks like WW on the wing.
No "looks like" about it.
Wills Wings say the Condor should not be towed...
Wills Wing says...
Note: The T2 has been designed for foot launched soaring flight. It has not been designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed.
...NONE of their gliders should be towed. Then they sell them to a world market in which the primary means of getting a glider into the air - training, recreational, competition, record attempt and setting - is towing. Then they make this bullshit disclaimer...
It can be towed successfully using proper procedures. Pilots wishing to tow should be USHGA skill rated for towing, and should avail themselves of all available information on the most current proper and safe towing procedures. Suggested sources for towing information include the United States Hang Gliding Association and the manufacturer of the towing winch / or equipment being used. Wills Wing makes no warranty of the suitability of the glider for towing.
...so they can sell through their criminally negligent serial killing school/dealership / glider laundering system and pretend to keep their hands clean while studiously ignoring decade after decade of unbridled Hewett based carnage.
...but scooter towing seems to be happening :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbCNyZzHD84
Yes. And:
http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/
What more do you fuckin' need?

"Our gliders aren't designed or intended to be towed but learn to fly our gliders on our trademark towing system so's you can start getting acclimated to all the shoddy lunatic bullshit and having your brain thoroughly washed and expectations thoroughly demolished from Day One, Flight One."
Arp - 2013/10/15 23:44:48 UTC

Found this on the WW site which seems to contradict the no towing statement for Condors :-
http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=scooter
And everything else they sell. Lying isn't a terribly sustainable tactic for maintaining credibility. And if you want contradictions watch their video and try to make sense of:
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
and:
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
Davis Straub - 2013/10/16 04:38:03 UTC

The principals at Wills Wing have been quite aware for years that Condors are being scooter towed.
The principals at Wills Wing have been quite aware for years of TONS of shit they're extremely careful not to talk about.
Arp - 2013/10/16 09:51:43 UTC

What is the glider being used in the Coupe Icare 2013 video if it not a Condor?
Yeah motherfucker, answer the question.
WW indicate the Condor has less than half the G load capability of their conventional gliders.
Which is what? They're certified to something around six but can probably handle more.
Given that towing only takes place in light winds then the loads should be within the glider's load limits but by how much?
Who gives a rat's ass?

- Put a one and a half G weak link on it and it won't break.

- If you've got this glider in a scooter training situation in which it's approaching its load capacity it's almost certainly not gonna matter whether or not it holds together.
As WW are saying towing is not recommended for the Condor and then show it being used in a towing operation it gives a mixed message.
Useless goddam wastes of space. But if you wanna be a friend to every pilot you meet...
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
Majo Gularte - 2013/10/16 06:18:12 UTC
Guatemala

The history of my accident learning to fly
Hi everybody!! (Sorry my english is not good)
Yeah, I can tell. You really need to look up the word "accident".
After over a year I decided that is time to share the history and the video of the accident that I had when I was learning to fly.
Suggestion... When you're trying to learn to fly hook up with some people capable of teaching flying.
It took so long for me to be ready to show the video because is very emotional and it brings back to my memory all the pain that my family and I went through...
Tough one to watch - and I wasn't even the one who crashed.
...but I think is important so other people can learn from the mistakes made that day.
Sorry Majo... There's absolutely nothing to be learned on that one. And if some moron had decided thirty years ago that fence posts increased the safety of the towing operation you'd have just launched a heated fifteen page discussion about how to properly deal with the inconvenience they occasionally present and your failures in using the proper technique.
Now everything is good, I am fully recovered...
No you're not.
...and most important I STILL DREAM ABOUT FLYING! I am planning to go to United States next year (as soon as I can save enough money) and learn to fly.
Save some more money and go to France or Japan.
This is the link to my blog where you can read the history and find the youtube link for the accident video. Any advice, recomendation and comments are welcome. XOXO :*
Read what Kite Strings has on:
- hook-in checks
- foot launch towing
- flying and landing with your hands on the downtubes
- foot landings
Fuck warrior spirit. The game's mostly about getting along with the air. If you try to fight it too much and too often you're gonna lose bigtime - again.
Dan Johnson - 2013/10/16 06:59:32 UTC

I remember! The video is just heart wrenching!
Yes.
I hope you have healed well.
In my case, thinking about it is far worse than it was.
Best of luck! Have you any sponsors yet? Did you choose a school?
Majo Gularte - 2013/10/16 13:27:02 UTC

Hi!!well I still have a little problem with my left hand, but after all its almos nothing, I think now I am ready to learn properly in a good school...
Good luck.
I think is going to be Wallaby Ranch...
Didn't you just say something about a GOOD school?
I am just hoping the embassy dont deny my visa aplication. I wish I could find sponsors! do you think that is even posible? Because I could really use some help.
Be extremely careful who you're getting from - and those guys are just about all assholes you should avoid like the plague.
2013/10/16 13:32:44 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
Brad Barkley - 2013/10/16 13:38:11 UTC

Welcome! And your English is great!

I'm really sorry you had such a terrible accident, and I admire your continued determination to fly. I learned to fly via scooter tow training, and it's normally a great, safe way to learn. BUT... it is also highly dependent on the skill and judgement of the person operating the scooter. From the video, it looks like it was far too windy for a new student to be towing, and with too many obstacles in the area being used.
It was a really nasty crosswind. Look at the yellow ribbon on the end of the towline before she launches and as she's becoming airborne.
Are you able to travel to the States? If so, I highly recommend a trip to Blue Sky fight park in Virginia.
Or the Madison Square Garden fight park in New York. The results can be almost indistinguishable.
There you can take scooter tow lessons with Steve Wendt, who is acknowledged as the master of the scooter tow method.
Yeah. THE acknowledged master. He builds a shoddy system, declares it the global standard, and he's the master in the field. Big surprise.
I have done hundreds of tows from him, with nothing worse than a scraped knee. Here is a link to his website

http://www.blueskyhg.com/
Yeah, you can run a system like that for decades and never have a disaster worse than a scraped knee. That's not where the problem is.

The problem is the bullshit Steve's teaching about standard aerotow weak links and being able to "master" hitting a release lever on the downtube. "Well, the worst I ever got in light morning and evening air skimming along at carefully controlled and adjusted light tensions which never pop the fishing line and an inaccessible release I never needed to use was a scraped knee. So of course I'll be fine coming off a cart in thermal conditions which can stand me on my ear at any given moment while being pulled at high speed by a dimwitted egomaniacal asshole 250 feet away who's got his own heavy airplane to fly and the piece of fishing line which can and will send my thrust from over two hundred pounds to zero in a millisecond at random but most likely when I'm dealing with a high angle of attack."

Just about all hang glider training has two goals for its marks:
- teaching them basic up/down left/right stuff
- lulling them into false senses of security

And Steve's got that shit down but good.
Good luck in your quest to fly, and keep us posted. Image
You'll need good luck - especially if your quest to fly takes you to Quest. And if it does be sure to look up Shannon Moon...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair

...so's you can compare notes on pairs of demolished arms and nerve damage.
Tiberiu Szollosi - 2013/10/16 14:03:56 UTC

I know a little bit about going through an injury recovery and it's really hard for some to grasp the idea of not being able to do the simplest things we take for granted.
But not for tons of hang glider people.
You have had the right positive can do attitude and it payed off, in the long run it will serve you well as it will only make you stronger and more determined.
Yep. And you just can't overstate the importance of...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.

anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.
...determination in this sport.
Hope you earn those wings and soar .... Image
Bullshit.
2013/10/16 17:49:23 UTC - 3 thumbs - Majo Gularte
Paul Edwards - 2013/10/16 14:32:15 UTC

Thank you for taking the time to write up your experience and share it. It is both a sad and an inspiring story.
Half right.
I have a hard time explaining to some people why I fly. People think 'danger' and immediately decide they will not even consider the act. I have never understood that mode of living. Life is full of danger, just as life is full of opportunities to live, to grow, to learn, to expand, to explore and discover.
And as far as I can tell you stopped a long time ago.
Even an accident or injury can be an opportunity to grow and learn if you have the wisdom to discover the lesson behind the experience.
Bullshit. This was a total pooch screw with terrible consequences. Nothing was learned that a twelve year old kid couldn't have picked up after five minutes worth of painless fun dune instruction.
On the other hand, if you shy away from experience just because it may bring you pain you will live as a shadow of what you could be.
Yeah, Majo. If you're not flying hang gliders at least three weekends a month you are NOTHING.
You had an accident.
Bullshit.
You have recovered and grown into a smarter person.
Remains to be seen.
Next time you will trust your instinct...
Sure, trust your instinct...
Zack C - 2010/11/10 06:18:31 UTC

Flying is unintuitive and a reliance on intuition is dangerous. This is one of the main points of Langewiesche's "Stick and Rudder".
Hard to go wrong with that strategy.
...and you will fly with greater awareness of all that could happen.
Like Zack Marzec did? How long do you think it'll take her to achieve a comparable level of competence?
In the process you have created a story that can help other people learn the same lessons with perhaps less actual hospital time!'
Bullshit. Anybody who thinks there was anything to learn from this one has no business flying.
There is really no choice at all.
Got that part...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
...right.
FLY FLY FLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0
A Winter at Quest Air
Zack Marzec - 2013/02/01

FLY FLY FLY
2013/10/18 11:30:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jaime Perry
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30128
The history of my accident learning to fly
Felix Cantesanu - 2013/10/16 15:13:16 UTC

Thank you for sharing your story!
Hard to get enough of stories like that.
You are a strong human being and I admire you for that.
Amazing how much admiration you can get in this sport for breaking a couple of arms or permanently crippling yourself - and how much hatred you get for doing things right and not breaking a couple of arms or permanently crippling yourself and trying to get things done right for everybody. Ya think if I pulled my glider out of mothballs, launched unhooked, and spent two and a half months in the hospital people would cut me a little more slack?
From watching the video it's clear you weren't ready yet...
Name some people who were ready for a foot launched crosswind takeoff in those conditions. You can start by counting me out.
...and I'm sorry your instructor...
Her WHAT?
...told you you were - a hard lesson you need to take away from this as a pilot (as with other things in life): listen to your gut feeling!
Bullshit. Look at the numbers.

And let's not forget... Every single person who's launched unhooked - or with an unhooked passenger - had a gut feeling that everything was just fine.
You had it, didn't listen to it. Next time you'll know better :)
Where are you getting this crap? If she had had a gut feeling about this one and a clue what she should've been doing she would've made some effort to hold the nose down.
Not sure how much of exactly what went wrong in that accident you fully understand or talked to with a good instructor.
There ARE NO "good instructors". If there were we'd have heard them constantly screaming about all the bullshit that's going on in this sport.
I'm not an instructor...
That much is good for a point with me.
...but can tell that: the angle of attack was initially good but went wrong as soon as the tow line started pulling (too high angle of attack, put you in the air too soon, you really had little or no control over the glider once you were airborne at such a low speed), also the control input you gave was initially right but not aggressive enough (you pulled on your left down-tube to fix the turn but not enough and didn't pull the nose down), then once you felt you can't fix it it all went down - you probably went into "panic" mode and did the best you could to try and save yourself.
How can you tell? You're not an instructor.
(If I am wrong about my take on this, someone with more experience please chime in).
(Fuck experience. None of this has shit to do with experience.)
I am not saying this to critique you, it's not your fault you weren't taught right.
Nobody is on most of the essentials.
I am very sorry you had to go through this!
She didn't.
Worse thing: why is the towing being done in a field with such obstacles around!?
Those wouldn't have been obstacles without the insane crosswind.
The most important part of learning to be a HG pilot...
Are you sure you're a hang glider pilot?
...is understanding exactly how everything works.
Felix Cantesanu - 92561 - H3 - 2012/10/08 - Adam Elchin - AT FL
You don't have fuckin' clue, Felix - and neither do the assholes who signed you (and Rooney) off.
You need to get your hands on a good book if you haven't already - I love Dennis Pagen's Hang Gliding Training Manual.
I'd love to see Pagen with a stake driven through his heart.
It's terrific.
I haven't read it. But if it doesn't totally suck the first half of it is a renunciation of the crap he published in Towing Aloft.
If you don't have a good training book I'd be glad to buy and send you this one (PM me a mailing address and I will send it to you).
Send it to me. Then Majo and everyone else will be able to benefit from my identification of all the deadly crap in it.
This book has helped me a lot during my schooling, I've read it many times and still go back to it for reference and clarity often.
Yeah. I'll bet it's right in line with all the deadly crap you've swallowed.
I wish you all the best, I admire your spirit, don't give up, you will be a free soaring bird soon enough - just keep being positive.
And here's your entire contribution to the Zack Marzec postmortem discussion:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28243
I Hope This Isn't So :-(
Felix Cantesanu - 2013/02/03 05:42:41 UTC

This is tragic. So very sorry for his family and friends, so much suffering.
Huge eye opener, the sport is safe(er), but not that safe...
And even THAT was infinitely more than anything that came from your dickhead buddies at Ridgely.
2013/10/16 15:21:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
2013/10/16 17:52:56 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Majo Gularte
2013/10/17 12:30:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dawson
Steve Davy
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Steve Davy »

Tad Eareckson wrote:I'd love to see Pagen with a stake driven through his heart.
And I'd love to see Majo's "instructor" getting his teeth knocked out the backside of his fucking head!
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